Yes, I do use the sheets. But now mainly for adapting them to my own campaign. I make them much more rules lite and simple for my own use. But they remind me of all the things to cover. It's funny, the picture you posted always baffled me till I saw a video comparing and contrasting gygaxian initiative with Judge's Guild combat. I've moved to judge's guild style combat with no initiative, I've just made my table far more simple so as to memorize it. It has been more fun at the table. Fight on!
Okay, thanks for asking. Here is a rough version of a table that looks a lot nicer in MSWord!
Phase / Weapon / Magic / Item 1 / Range / Device / Drop 2 / Long / Memory / Grab 3 / Medium / Potion / Change 4 / Short / Scroll / Find
By "phase," I just mean a generic term for different parts of a combat round. Going across a row is stuff that would happen simultaneously. Going down a column means the above occurs before the below. So at the top of a round I ask the players to imagine what they will do. Then I ask them to be honest and go around and tell me. Sometimes real mayhem ensues. It is pretty fun. So range fire could stop a MU's memorized spell, but not usually melee. And MUs can cast at each other simultaneously, which is really fun. Wizard duel!
Nathan Jennings, that is fantastic, and a much more elegant design than what I've been attempting to do since I first grasped the concept of "weapon priority" from JGRRS. How do you handle movement using this table? Do you allow a move action and an attack in the same phase, or is it either/or?
Thanks, guys. Robert Weber, you know, that is a good question. You know it hasn't really come up yet. It has been pretty intuitive. I mean, if they are surprised, they are so close it all dives into melee pretty fast. If they aren't surprised, maybe they could get off range fire and a spell first, then they close and the top of the next round is melee. Movement stuff for me usually comes up in pursuit situations, or when folks are going for the same goal, eg., a PC and a goblin both want the mighty dingus and move to grab it. After I check who is closest to the dingus I would then check move rates. Depending on where they are, in the main, higher wins. If they are the same move rate, opposing check. If they are only 3" apart in move rate, the higher party gets a bonus to the opposing check. Sounds complicated but I'm used to it and it flows for me.
But you know, you could probably add another column, "move." You could do something like 1. ¼, 2. ⅓, 3. ¾, 4. Full move. Something like that?
Chris Holmes, yes, under the column "magic" I just mean the various sources of spells: devices, like magic items; memory, as in memorized spells; then potions and finally scrolls. I listed scrolls last because I imagined folks having to pull them out of the copper or leather case, unroll it, and then read it out loud.
Nathan Jennings Would the "Move" column be reversed, since on your table a "1" is better than a "4"? Oh, wait...
A figure that is attempting a movement of up to Full would then rate a 4 on the table, while another figure only attempting to move 1/4 would rate a 1. I get it! In the case of tied table ratings, measure actual distance attempted - the shorter distance wins the tie. :)
I used to use these sequences (even RuneQuest had them back in the day, it's amazing how a system we thought so different has so many of its roots in D&D). Now I just go by Holmes DEX-based initiative. Higher DEX goes first, whether you're throwing a spell, climbing a sheer surface, throwing a jar of oil, or hitting it with your axe. I find the added complexity is simply not worth it.
Michael Thomas, that makes a lot of sense. I just tend to keep dexterity more about fingers and fine motor skills. Also, the point of the judges guild approach is that it avoids initiative, which I kind of like. But I like the dex approach too and it is also fun to play. So fight on!
I've pin-pointed at least 3 different approaches to "initiative" that I can choose from in any given encounter.
1. Individual Initiative when everyone is out in the open & skirmishing from several different directions as there is no telling who will get the first move;
2. Rank Initiative for bottle-necked situations, usually in any interior terrain - dungeon, castle passageways, etc; the first ranks roll, highest wins, first rank goes first, opposing side's first rank goes next, first side's 2nd rank goes, then opposing 2nd rank, etc. rinse & repeat;
3. ordered/mass combat that benefits the usual order of resolution for attacks - ranged, spells, long, medium & short weapons, like JGRRS here. :)
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ReplyDeleteYes, I do use the sheets. But now mainly for adapting them to my own campaign. I make them much more rules lite and simple for my own use. But they remind me of all the things to cover. It's funny, the picture you posted always baffled me till I saw a video comparing and contrasting gygaxian initiative with Judge's Guild combat. I've moved to judge's guild style combat with no initiative, I've just made my table far more simple so as to memorize it. It has been more fun at the table. Fight on!
ReplyDeleteHaven't used it but I would like to!
ReplyDeleteNathan, tell us your simplified version. I hope it doesn't force us to distinguish between a pole arm and a pike.
ReplyDeleteOkay, thanks for asking. Here is a rough version of a table that looks a lot nicer in MSWord!
ReplyDeletePhase / Weapon / Magic / Item
1 / Range / Device / Drop
2 / Long / Memory / Grab
3 / Medium / Potion / Change
4 / Short / Scroll / Find
By "phase," I just mean a generic term for different parts of a combat round. Going across a row is stuff that would happen simultaneously. Going down a column means the above occurs before the below. So at the top of a round I ask the players to imagine what they will do. Then I ask them to be honest and go around and tell me. Sometimes real mayhem ensues. It is pretty fun. So range fire could stop a MU's memorized spell, but not usually melee. And MUs can cast at each other simultaneously, which is really fun. Wizard duel!
Fight on!
Nathan Jennings, that is fantastic, and a much more elegant design than what I've been attempting to do since I first grasped the concept of "weapon priority" from JGRRS. How do you handle movement using this table? Do you allow a move action and an attack in the same phase, or is it either/or?
ReplyDeleteWow, awesome table
ReplyDeleteYes it's pretty elegant. I assume by memory you mean a spell.
ReplyDeleteThanks, guys. Robert Weber, you know, that is a good question. You know it hasn't really come up yet. It has been pretty intuitive. I mean, if they are surprised, they are so close it all dives into melee pretty fast. If they aren't surprised, maybe they could get off range fire and a spell first, then they close and the top of the next round is melee. Movement stuff for me usually comes up in pursuit situations, or when folks are going for the same goal, eg., a PC and a goblin both want the mighty dingus and move to grab it. After I check who is closest to the dingus I would then check move rates. Depending on where they are, in the main, higher wins. If they are the same move rate, opposing check. If they are only 3" apart in move rate, the higher party gets a bonus to the opposing check. Sounds complicated but I'm used to it and it flows for me.
ReplyDeleteBut you know, you could probably add another column, "move." You could do something like 1. ¼, 2. ⅓, 3. ¾, 4. Full move. Something like that?
Chris Holmes, yes, under the column "magic" I just mean the various sources of spells: devices, like magic items; memory, as in memorized spells; then potions and finally scrolls. I listed scrolls last because I imagined folks having to pull them out of the copper or leather case, unroll it, and then read it out loud.
Nathan Jennings Would the "Move" column be reversed, since on your table a "1" is better than a "4"? Oh, wait...
ReplyDeleteA figure that is attempting a movement of up to Full would then rate a 4 on the table, while another figure only attempting to move 1/4 would rate a 1. I get it! In the case of tied table ratings, measure actual distance attempted - the shorter distance wins the tie. :)
I used to use these sequences (even RuneQuest had them back in the day, it's amazing how a system we thought so different has so many of its roots in D&D). Now I just go by Holmes DEX-based initiative. Higher DEX goes first, whether you're throwing a spell, climbing a sheer surface, throwing a jar of oil, or hitting it with your axe. I find the added complexity is simply not worth it.
ReplyDeleteMichael Thomas, that makes a lot of sense. I just tend to keep dexterity more about fingers and fine motor skills. Also, the point of the judges guild approach is that it avoids initiative, which I kind of like. But I like the dex approach too and it is also fun to play. So fight on!
ReplyDeleteI've pin-pointed at least 3 different approaches to "initiative" that I can choose from in any given encounter.
ReplyDelete1. Individual Initiative when everyone is out in the open & skirmishing from several different directions as there is no telling who will get the first move;
2. Rank Initiative for bottle-necked situations, usually in any interior terrain - dungeon, castle passageways, etc; the first ranks roll, highest wins, first rank goes first, opposing side's first rank goes next, first side's 2nd rank goes, then opposing 2nd rank, etc. rinse & repeat;
3. ordered/mass combat that benefits the usual order of resolution for attacks - ranged, spells, long, medium & short weapons, like JGRRS here. :)
#judgesguild
ReplyDelete