My assumption is that the original grognards had a lot of internalized rules on how different weapons worked that never got codified. So I think there were lots of at-the-table considerations of when you could use a halberd and when you could use a dagger.
But many of us, not coming to D&D from wargames, see "all weapons do 1d6" and no other mechanics specified, and just say "I attack."
Which is to say, in close quarters, a dagger is deadly. But if you're wielding it against a weapon with greater reach and room to maneuver it, you're never going to get in range to strike with it.
Joel Priddy I come from the same place you do. This seems like the most reasonable answer. The guys doing wargames were used to very spare rules and a lot of reffing.
On a similar topic - that of unstated mechanical differences between weapons - Michael Mornard once disagreed, and he would have known. He said flatly that (for instance) a sword and made were treated mechanically identical in OD&D.
Other sources, such as Judges Guild's initiative by attack type table, indicate other people played it different.
In my opinion, all weapons doing 1d6 is both appropriate and realistic. A dagger is just as deadly as a halberd. Maybe moreso. But the double attacks doesn't make sense.
I think it was an oversight. I wonder if Zach, Michael Thomas or Chris Holmes can say for sure?
Thanks Guy Fullerton. The TLDR version is that Holmes had all single-handed melee attacks (including monsters) getting two attacks per round. TSR editing changed this to daggers/light weapons only.
The OD&D combat rules were originally based on Chainmail's "man-to-man" combat, which had elaborate rules for striking based on "weapon class" (the length of a weapon). OD&D provided an "alternate combat system" (D20 roll vs. AC) which eventually became the standard, though initiative was left undefined (Chainmail's first strike was again based on weapon class...longer weapons go first, smaller weapons attack faster, for example).
Zach H has done an analysis of the original Basic manuscript in which Holmes tries to reconcile these two systems (Chainmail and "alternate") while simultaneously streamlining it (Dex-based initiative for first strike, for example). His original manuscript was edited, however...perhaps for brevity, perhaps for additional streamlining...resulting in the perplexing rules we find in Holmes Basic.
Whether this result was accidental or purposeful can be debated, but it's apparent it was unsatisfactory, seeing as how it was changed with the next iteration of D&D and never repeated.
Ok I just re read Zach's analysis and Angantyr on daggers. I am going to say daggers and arrows do 1D4 and daggers get 3 blows per round. 2 handed weapons get one blow and do 2D6. I have no historical or special knollage to site, that's just how I roll.
In addition to Chainmail, there's also the original Warlock system (1975), where all weapons do d6 but get varying numbers of blows and damage dice. Daggers get 4 x 1d6, Long Sword gets 3 x 2d6, and 2-Handed Sword gets 1 x 3d6. The weapons also get adjustments to hit based on the target AC. Monsters get a similar system based on their attack type such "Small Teeth", "Large Pinchers", "Medium Paws". It's detailed!
My assumption is that the original grognards had a lot of internalized rules on how different weapons worked that never got codified. So I think there were lots of at-the-table considerations of when you could use a halberd and when you could use a dagger.
ReplyDeleteBut many of us, not coming to D&D from wargames, see "all weapons do 1d6" and no other mechanics specified, and just say "I attack."
Which is to say, in close quarters, a dagger is deadly. But if you're wielding it against a weapon with greater reach and room to maneuver it, you're never going to get in range to strike with it.
That, or an oversight.
Joel Priddy I come from the same place you do. This seems like the most reasonable answer. The guys doing wargames were used to very spare rules and a lot of reffing.
ReplyDeleteOn a similar topic - that of unstated mechanical differences between weapons - Michael Mornard once disagreed, and he would have known. He said flatly that (for instance) a sword and made were treated mechanically identical in OD&D.
Other sources, such as Judges Guild's initiative by attack type table, indicate other people played it different.
In my opinion, all weapons doing 1d6 is both appropriate and realistic. A dagger is just as deadly as a halberd. Maybe moreso. But the double attacks doesn't make sense.
I think it was an oversight. I wonder if Zach, Michael Thomas or Chris Holmes can say for sure?
Zach explained how that got introduced here:
ReplyDeletehttp://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2014/01/part-16-exchange-of-two-blows-with.html
It's a mistake.
ReplyDeleteIt should be three attacks.
~runs from thrown daggers~
Thanks Guy Fullerton. The TLDR version is that Holmes had all single-handed melee attacks (including monsters) getting two attacks per round. TSR editing changed this to daggers/light weapons only.
ReplyDeleteZach H why would two hand attacks be weaker?
ReplyDeleteThe misconception that larger weapons are much much slower than smaller, lighter weapons. Also, they are unwieldy in narrow spaces.
ReplyDeleteThe OD&D combat rules were originally based on Chainmail's "man-to-man" combat, which had elaborate rules for striking based on "weapon class" (the length of a weapon). OD&D provided an "alternate combat system" (D20 roll vs. AC) which eventually became the standard, though initiative was left undefined (Chainmail's first strike was again based on weapon class...longer weapons go first, smaller weapons attack faster, for example).
ReplyDeleteZach H has done an analysis of the original Basic manuscript in which Holmes tries to reconcile these two systems (Chainmail and "alternate") while simultaneously streamlining it (Dex-based initiative for first strike, for example). His original manuscript was edited, however...perhaps for brevity, perhaps for additional streamlining...resulting in the perplexing rules we find in Holmes Basic.
Whether this result was accidental or purposeful can be debated, but it's apparent it was unsatisfactory, seeing as how it was changed with the next iteration of D&D and never repeated.
Ok I just re read Zach's analysis and Angantyr on daggers. I am going to say daggers and arrows do 1D4 and daggers get 3 blows per round. 2 handed weapons get one blow and do 2D6. I have no historical or special knollage to site, that's just how I roll.
ReplyDeleteI... I... was right?
ReplyDeleteChris Holmes that was something I thought about too. If your dad had polyhedral dice then, than giving "puny" daggers two tries would make more sense.
ReplyDeleteYes we had 8 and 12 sided too but I don't think we used them. If I remember right, the cross bow and long bow we gave a d6 damage.
ReplyDeleteIn addition to Chainmail, there's also the original Warlock system (1975), where all weapons do d6 but get varying numbers of blows and damage dice. Daggers get 4 x 1d6, Long Sword gets 3 x 2d6, and 2-Handed Sword gets 1 x 3d6. The weapons also get adjustments to hit based on the target AC. Monsters get a similar system based on their attack type such "Small Teeth", "Large Pinchers", "Medium Paws". It's detailed!
ReplyDeleteYes Zach, Warlock was an influence on Dads game. To be clear, I am talking about our house rules. You guys are the experts on Holmes Basic.
ReplyDelete