I'm alone in thinking that it is quite clear. Because if you follow the rules as written you end up with a system that is equal to the one in Moldvay (and it explains the strange elf XP chart there as well).
The Holmes rules are clear up to level 3. Then it gets interesting, depending on which rules you use to expand past level 3. I posted on DF, if anyone wants to see my take on it.
This is what Moldvay did: 4,000XP for the elf to go up to 2nd level as a F/MU, and for a simple 'basic game, this is one of the reasons why the Elf as a Class is.
Moldvay gives them a bit of a break by requiring double Fighter XP. F+M/U would actually be 4,500 for 2nd level. I favor this based on the line about netting "experience in each category equally."
I guess this is where we disagree. I see Moldvay's goal as simply restating Holmes rather than inventing a new system. The same way he gives halflings d6 hit points and limits the numbers of spells a magic-user knows.
I just looked at the 1975 Warlock for insight, since this is probably what Zereth used in Holmes' pre-Basic campaign. However, it's quite different: it treats Race as Class, so there's a separate table for Elves - beating Moldvay by 6 years. The Elvish progression is generous, requiring less than twice a single-class FM: 2nd:3K; 3rd: 6K; 4th: 12K. The HD progression is 1st: 1+1, 2nd:2; 3rd: 2+3; 4th: 3. All characters in Warlock use a d6 for HD as in the LBBs.
What was the spell progressing for elves from Warlock? That HD progression looks like the one I use; three HD every four levels with a 4th level elf casting as a 3rd level MU as well.
Didn't early drafts of Holmes show up recently. I'm curious about what it says.
MU & Elves use the same spell progression as Holmes for Lvl 1-3. So at L3 it's 2 1. I always assumed Gygax changed this to match AD&D, but it's also possible that it came from Warlock. A few photos have been posted of Holmes' draft, but we are still waiting on further scans.
In Warlock after third level, the Elf gains spells a bit slower than a MU. All the races have unlimited progression in Warlock in their own class, so I this seems to be a balancing move.
I'm alone in thinking that it is quite clear. Because if you follow the rules as written you end up with a system that is equal to the one in Moldvay (and it explains the strange elf XP chart there as well).
ReplyDeleteGo figure.
The Holmes rules are clear up to level 3. Then it gets interesting, depending on which rules you use to expand past level 3. I posted on DF, if anyone wants to see my take on it.
ReplyDeleteJust added a response on DF. I always interpreted the elf as needing all of the XP for F and MU to go up a level.
ReplyDeleteThis is what Moldvay did: 4,000XP for the elf to go up to 2nd level as a F/MU, and for a simple 'basic game, this is one of the reasons why the Elf as a Class is.
ReplyDeleteMoldvay gives them a bit of a break by requiring double Fighter XP. F+M/U would actually be 4,500 for 2nd level. I favor this based on the line about netting "experience in each category equally."
ReplyDeleteI guess this is where we disagree. I see Moldvay's goal as simply restating Holmes rather than inventing a new system. The same way he gives halflings d6 hit points and limits the numbers of spells a magic-user knows.
ReplyDeleteAaron Day You are hedgehobbit?
ReplyDeleteI just looked at the 1975 Warlock for insight, since this is probably what Zereth used in Holmes' pre-Basic campaign. However, it's quite different: it treats Race as Class, so there's a separate table for Elves - beating Moldvay by 6 years. The Elvish progression is generous, requiring less than twice a single-class FM: 2nd:3K; 3rd: 6K; 4th: 12K. The HD progression is 1st: 1+1, 2nd:2; 3rd: 2+3; 4th: 3. All characters in Warlock use a d6 for HD as in the LBBs.
ReplyDeleteYes. That's me on the losing side.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the spell progressing for elves from Warlock? That HD progression looks like the one I use; three HD every four levels with a 4th level elf casting as a 3rd level MU as well.
Didn't early drafts of Holmes show up recently. I'm curious about what it says.
Ah, you were one of the first to add me on G+, but until today I didn't realize you were the same person as HH. : )
ReplyDeleteMU & Elves use the same spell progression as Holmes for Lvl 1-3. So at L3 it's 2 1. I always assumed Gygax changed this to match AD&D, but it's also possible that it came from Warlock. A few photos have been posted of Holmes' draft, but we are still waiting on further scans.
ReplyDeleteIn Warlock after third level, the Elf gains spells a bit slower than a MU. All the races have unlimited progression in Warlock in their own class, so I this seems to be a balancing move.
ReplyDelete