This may not be news to the illustrious members of this community, but I only noticed it the other day...
Gary's "original" version of B2 (the one for Holmes) has almost all the "regular soldiers" in the keep as 0-level humans. The later "revised" version of B2 (the one for Moldvay/Cook/Marsh) uses 1st-level fighters instead. That's a pretty huge change in my book: Suddenly all of these people are highly trained professionals, not mere conscripts from the surrounding homesteads.
I went through and totaled up: 247 level 1 fighters, 4 level 2 fighters, 4 level 3 fighters, 1 level 6 fighter. Plus a spattering of clerics, wizards, and a level 3 elf. The Keep could have taken out the Caves of Chaos any time it wanted.
I am certainly glad that I have the earlier Holmes-era printing of B2, there's more adventuring to be had here... :-)
There are Borderlands and then there are Borderlands...
ReplyDeleteI wish I had an early edition!
ReplyDeleteThis is just a quick count and I didn't consider pluses, asterisks, prisoners or wandering monsters other than those noted in the module, but arrayed against the Keep in the Caves of Chaos would be about 94 ½HD monsters, 194 1HD, 67 2HD, 17 3HD, 6 4HD, 2 5HD and 1 6HD monsters (or a total of 466 HD).
Eye-balling it I would give the advantage to the monsters even in a straight fight. Given the dangers of Wilderness travel and Underworld exploration, plus the desirability of leaving some defenders at the Keep, if I were the Castellan I would be reluctant to attempt an assault.
In the Holmes edition of B2, the 0-level Keep guards should be staying very alert at all times. :-)
Thanks for doing the other half of the work and counting up the monsters. :-)
ReplyDeleteInteresting.. makes sense, since B/X doesn't have zero level humans as such. I started with the original version of the module, never realized the differences in the later editions.
ReplyDeleteActually B/X has the notion of "Normal Man" which seems to be related to 0-level individuals at least implicitly. See page B21, under LEVEL OF RETAINERS as well as pages B26 and B27 for Saving Throws and Attacks.
ReplyDelete"Normal Man" first appeared in Holmes, but only in the combat/save tables. Their hp are not clear except from a single mention in the Sample Dungeon where Pirates get d6 as NM. In the original B2, Gygax defines LVL 0 as NM on page 2 but doesn't give hp. But a quick check reveals the LVL 0 guards to have up to 6 hp. Moldvay keeps the "Normal Human" line on the tables, but drop them to d4 hp in the Monster List. In the revised B2 they kept the same hp for everyone in the Keep, so they probably bumped the guards to F1 because some of them have 5 or 6 hp.
ReplyDeleteThough looking a bit further there are still a handful "LVL 0s" in the revised Keep - mostly townsfolk rather than guards - and some of these have 5 or 6 hp in violation of the Moldvay rulebook. So perhaps the change to the guards was because someone thought the guards were more suitably F1.
ReplyDeleteI never did look this closely at the two version I have, although I have noticed that there are entire paragraphs removed, edited for Moldvay rules, or moved entirely to different places. Time to get them both out & do some closer inspections. :)
ReplyDeleteDo you have one with the AD&D blurb? I've wondered what it says about the conversion and where to put the module in Greyhawk. I think I've heard before that it should go into the Yeomanry (where I wanted it a few years ago for a campaign that never happened) but I don't think I've ever actually seen the original wording by Gygax.
ReplyDeletePeter: Do you mean the AD&D version of B2 that came out in the 1990's? I meant that I need to look at 2 of the 3 copies that I have: one is a Holmes Basic D&D version, the other 2 are re-written for Moldvay rules - although the Silver Anniversary edition of B2 mashes the Holmes & Moldvay versions to some extent! IIRC, it has text from Moldvay but art from Holmes B2 versions, or vice versa. I'm not at home, no books handy.
ReplyDeleteThe very first B2 is supposed to have a section that explains how Gary thought this would be used with AD&D instead of Holmes.
ReplyDeleteYes, the 1st print of B2 has an extra section on using the module with AD&D. You can tell if you have this version by looking at the cover. The module should have a TSR Wizard Logo and the first paragraph of the cover text will have four lines, including one mentioning the module is "suitable for use with AD&D". In the second print they replaced with this text with two illustrations and changed the front cover to three lines. I transcribed the missing paragraph long ago on DF; I'll copy it over here in another post.
ReplyDeleteSorry Peter! I totally misunderstood what you were asking. As it turned out, as soon as I got home, I got called into work, so no B2 investigations by me, and come to think of it, I don't think there is any "Suitable for use with AD&D" on the cover, but I'll look when I get the chance.
ReplyDelete