I am thinking about allowing all characters some chance at thief
skills, sneaking, climbing etc.
I am thinking about allowing all characters some chance at thief skills, sneaking, climbing etc. Has anyone else house ruled something like that? If so how did it work out?
I s'pose sooner or later someone will say it so it may as well be me: I have to agree with many folks' interpretation of thief 'skills'. That, firstly, they are class abilities and not typical skills. Secondly that they are nearly...erm...preternatural. That is, anyone can climb and sneak, but only the thief can climb sheer surfaces (as his skill allows him to do) and only the thief can move SILENTLY. Surprise is one mechanic that can be used for 'regular' sneaking about. Perhaps ability score checks of some sort may be used for such mundane stealth activities. But I wouldn't allow other classes to do exactly what the thief can do anymore than I would allow a fighter to cast Magic Missile. :)
I use a d6 based skill system house rule, and let any character attempt anything within reason. 6 = success, 2-5 = not quite, 1 = abject failure (situation gets worse). That equates to giving everyone a 16.66% for any skill, with an equal 16.66% chance of screwing it up really bad. It seems to equally promote heroic deeds and hair-brained schemes gone awry.
If they are trying to climb a wall and roll a 2 then they get to a point where they can't find a handhold and have to climb back down, but on a 1 they fall and take damage. If they are picking a lock then a 1 means that something broke off inside the lock and now not even the key will open it. Sneaking is the hardest to pin down because some situations are more difficult than others. Generally I base it off of the number of guards (and there almost always needs to be a distraction to draw the attention of guards for any chance of success). Like if they are trying to sneak past 3 guards, then 6 = success but a 3 or less means that they are spotted. If they are trying to sneak past 10 guards, then I'd have them roll a d12 instead; 12= success, 11= no luck, but they didn't see you either, 10 or less = spotted.
Just be sure to give the players an idea of what their chances are before they roll so that they can gauge the risk before they decide to attempt the action.
For thieves you could give them a bonus to the d6 roll equal to their Hear Noise skill (natural 1 is still abject failure). Another option would be to let them roll their skill percentage first, then if that fails they can make the d6 attempt.
Like cole long I've been toying with the idea of eliminating the Thief as a separate class. I'd like to basically make it so that every class is also a Thief. The whole party is basically a bunch of thieves in many campaigns anyway, since they crawl through dungeons looking for loot to steal. It would make sense for such people, no matter what else they specialize in, to try and pick up Thief-type skills. Besides, I think it's realistic enough that someone who trains to fight for a living would pick up other skills and have other hobbies, and that a trained killer would know how to sneak around, backstab, climb walls, and listen at doors (if real-life military training is anything to go by). A magic-user who can only cast a couple spells a day could probably have other training and hobbies, too. Still, Eric Norred and Nick Peterson make great points, and those are perfectly fine approaches to the subject as well. I'm glad everyone doesn't want to run the game exactly the same way; it makes it more interesting.
Yeah, I can totally dig it if a MU was perhaps raised in a keep wherein one of his mentors happened to be the captain of the guard. He may not be skilled with a sword though he may pick up some pointers "from the outside looking in" since he's more consumed with his regular studies, etc. Maybe a young man whose father was a forester and followed his such (fighter) was a voracious reader on mysticism and the occult or some such. Sure, he may not be able to cast spells, though such a PC (with a good DM) may be able to noodle out what some formula may be or what certain arcane symbols mean or...well..I'm sure you see where I'm going. However, this is far and away from one class getting full reign of another class's class ability/abilities full force. What I'm being long-winded about can simply be within the realm of the fighter with a high INT or MU with an above average ST or CON or DEX, or it may just and only be the purview of a PC's background (with such I often use ability checks with a slight bonus).
I'm with Eric Norred. Thieves' skills are near-supernatural abilities. Sure people can hide behind furniture and shimmy up trees (no roll or maybe some ability check). But ordinary folk can't hide in shadows or climb sheer surfaces. That's ninja stuff!
Eric Norred If you don't like the idea of every character of every class having all Thief abilities, you could let each player pick just one or two Thief abilities at character creation. I'm just throwing ideas at the wall regarding the possibility of removing the Thief as a separate class without removing Thief skills. It's just a thought experiment I've been thinking about lately. If I am going to include the Thief as a separate class, I certainly like the idea of Thieves being special because their class skills are supernatural (or nearly so).
My game Ambitions & Avarice has a subsystem called "dungeon throws" that all characters have access to. Non-magical classes can improve them as they level.
cole long, that is my "Holmesian" system (xd6 vs. stat). It is based on Holmes' sample game in his book, Fantasy Role Playing Games. I believe Holmes was influenced by The Fantasy Trip/Advanced Melee.
And as the Outlier here, might I suggest going classless and playing a skill based game? GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is what I play, even as I treasure my battered bluebook.
Denis McCarthy Played gurps fantasy for ten or fifteen years off and on. It's just not D&D. What I usually play now is Dungeon Master. It is so easy you can literally start from no knowledge and be playing in half an hour.
Zach H, yes. Holmes' Other Game (H. O. G. as it is sometimes called) only used 3d6 vs. stat. I was this inspired but expanded it to xd6 as seen in TFT/ITL.
I just do that stuff as Nd6 against a stat. I don't have a separate thief class these days though, just Fighter and Magic User. Haven't had problems.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a good system.
ReplyDeleteborrowed from Chris Kutalik
ReplyDelete(who does have thieves, but it's his check system)
ReplyDeleteI s'pose sooner or later someone will say it so it may as well be me:
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with many folks' interpretation of thief 'skills'. That, firstly, they are class abilities and not typical skills. Secondly that they are nearly...erm...preternatural. That is, anyone can climb and sneak, but only the thief can climb sheer surfaces (as his skill allows him to do) and only the thief can move SILENTLY. Surprise is one mechanic that can be used for 'regular' sneaking about. Perhaps ability score checks of some sort may be used for such mundane stealth activities. But I wouldn't allow other classes to do exactly what the thief can do anymore than I would allow a fighter to cast Magic Missile. :)
makes sense to me Eric Norred
ReplyDeleteEric Norred That was what I was thinking of.
ReplyDeleteI use a d6 based skill system house rule, and let any character attempt anything within reason. 6 = success, 2-5 = not quite, 1 = abject failure (situation gets worse). That equates to giving everyone a 16.66% for any skill, with an equal 16.66% chance of screwing it up really bad. It seems to equally promote heroic deeds and hair-brained schemes gone awry.
ReplyDeleteIf they are trying to climb a wall and roll a 2 then they get to a point where they can't find a handhold and have to climb back down, but on a 1 they fall and take damage. If they are picking a lock then a 1 means that something broke off inside the lock and now not even the key will open it. Sneaking is the hardest to pin down because some situations are more difficult than others. Generally I base it off of the number of guards (and there almost always needs to be a distraction to draw the attention of guards for any chance of success). Like if they are trying to sneak past 3 guards, then 6 = success but a 3 or less means that they are spotted. If they are trying to sneak past 10 guards, then I'd have them roll a d12 instead; 12= success, 11= no luck, but they didn't see you either, 10 or less = spotted.
Just be sure to give the players an idea of what their chances are before they roll so that they can gauge the risk before they decide to attempt the action.
For thieves you could give them a bonus to the d6 roll equal to their Hear Noise skill (natural 1 is still abject failure). Another option would be to let them roll their skill percentage first, then if that fails they can make the d6 attempt.
I kinda feel like an anti-fun stick-in-the-mud. I hope I didn't come across that way. :)
ReplyDeletenah yr cool as far as i'm seeing it Eric Norred
ReplyDeleteLike cole long I've been toying with the idea of eliminating the Thief as a separate class. I'd like to basically make it so that every class is also a Thief. The whole party is basically a bunch of thieves in many campaigns anyway, since they crawl through dungeons looking for loot to steal. It would make sense for such people, no matter what else they specialize in, to try and pick up Thief-type skills. Besides, I think it's realistic enough that someone who trains to fight for a living would pick up other skills and have other hobbies, and that a trained killer would know how to sneak around, backstab, climb walls, and listen at doors (if real-life military training is anything to go by). A magic-user who can only cast a couple spells a day could probably have other training and hobbies, too. Still, Eric Norred and Nick Peterson make great points, and those are perfectly fine approaches to the subject as well. I'm glad everyone doesn't want to run the game exactly the same way; it makes it more interesting.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I can totally dig it if a MU was perhaps raised in a keep wherein one of his mentors happened to be the captain of the guard. He may not be skilled with a sword though he may pick up some pointers "from the outside looking in" since he's more consumed with his regular studies, etc. Maybe a young man whose father was a forester and followed his such (fighter) was a voracious reader on mysticism and the occult or some such. Sure, he may not be able to cast spells, though such a PC (with a good DM) may be able to noodle out what some formula may be or what certain arcane symbols mean or...well..I'm sure you see where I'm going. However, this is far and away from one class getting full reign of another class's class ability/abilities full force. What I'm being long-winded about can simply be within the realm of the fighter with a high INT or MU with an above average ST or CON or DEX, or it may just and only be the purview of a PC's background (with such I often use ability checks with a slight bonus).
ReplyDeleteI'm with Eric Norred. Thieves' skills are near-supernatural abilities. Sure people can hide behind furniture and shimmy up trees (no roll or maybe some ability check). But ordinary folk can't hide in shadows or climb sheer surfaces. That's ninja stuff!
ReplyDeleteEric Norred
ReplyDeleteIf you don't like the idea of every character of every class having all Thief abilities, you could let each player pick just one or two Thief abilities at character creation. I'm just throwing ideas at the wall regarding the possibility of removing the Thief as a separate class without removing Thief skills. It's just a thought experiment I've been thinking about lately. If I am going to include the Thief as a separate class, I certainly like the idea of Thieves being special because their class skills are supernatural (or nearly so).
roll 1d20 below Attribute+Situational-Modifier
ReplyDeleteGreat mechanic Nick Peterson!
ReplyDeleteMy game Ambitions & Avarice has a subsystem called "dungeon throws" that all characters have access to. Non-magical classes can improve them as they level.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rpgnow.com/product/116758/Ambition--Avarice-1st-Edition
cole long, that is my "Holmesian" system (xd6 vs. stat). It is based on Holmes' sample game in his book, Fantasy Role Playing Games. I believe Holmes was influenced by The Fantasy Trip/Advanced Melee.
ReplyDeleteTony Rowe That's right, he specifically mentions in the book that he took the system from TFT. I think he only used 3d6 though. See http://zenopusarchives.blogspot.com/2013/09/3d6-stat-checks.html
ReplyDeleteAnd as the Outlier here, might I suggest going classless and playing a skill based game? GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is what I play, even as I treasure my battered bluebook.
ReplyDeleteDenis McCarthy
ReplyDeletePlayed gurps fantasy for ten or fifteen years off and on. It's just not D&D. What I usually play now is Dungeon Master. It is so easy you can literally start from no knowledge and be playing in half an hour.
I was looking for more D&D feel OSR.
Zach H, yes. Holmes' Other Game (H. O. G. as it is sometimes called) only used 3d6 vs. stat. I was this inspired but expanded it to xd6 as seen in TFT/ITL.
ReplyDelete