I've been thinking about how to handle making potions in a Holmesian manner. In a lot of ways, potions and scrolls are similar - one use spells in a can. On the other hand, it takes a Magic User or Elf to use a scroll, while potions can be drunk by anyone.
This suggests that making potions should be more difficult (expensive, time consuming, requiring rare ingredients, and possibly a higher level).
Has anyone done anything related to this? Any thoughts?
My BLUEHOLME witch does it at 2 weeks / 200 gp per spell level.
ReplyDeleteEarly on in my Holmes Basic games, I eventually bought the AD&D rulebook and used the advanced magic items, monsters, spells, and multi class rules, but until then, I loved rolling for potions on the other magic item tables in Holmes, since my other 2 players also took turns as DM, I had to think of new things to keep 'em guessing.
ReplyDeleteAnother issue with translating MU spells directly to potions (like spell scrolls) is the lack of certain magics (healing, for example). I suppose you could allow a MU/Elf to research a healing spell but that's a bit counter to the game as written (healing magic being the purview of clerics).
ReplyDeleteHowever, I like the idea of PC potion-making, and I'd think they should be fairly inexpensive. In my current game design (based in part on Holmes), a character can create a potion/salve for the cost of one "treasure unit" (equal to the contents of a small sack, approximately 1280 coins). In my game they'd need a "potion making" skill; in Holmes, I'd probably limit such alchemical distillations to characters of 3rd level and higher.
[hmm...on second pass, I suppose a leaking potion could be distilled from natural herbs and whatnot, even if there's no spell, per se...this would make potion making the ONLY way in which MUs can produce healing magics]
I avoid skills in D&D like the plague, and would allow any magic item creation under the research rules, but I don't have any formalized rules per Holmes. The easy answer is to base time & cost on AD&D magic item costs.
ReplyDeleteHolmes allows scroll creation at 1st level for MU's, there have been variant alchemist & witch classes in the past that allow potion creation, etc., but whether to make potions as easily profitable as scrolls? You must measure fragility vs specific elements (fire, f'rex), and shelf life, to decide which is, or should be more expensive, or easily produced.
But I think basing potions & scrolls on spell levels is a good place to start. The spell's availability to the PC should be the first consideration, and if no spell exists to match what is already available, then the research rules (AD&D most likely) should be consulted to provide an approximation.
Well, Holmes does have rules for spell research...fairly expensive.
ReplyDeleteAre potions profitable? I can think of a couple pitfalls to potion-making (from witch hunting and suspicion to lynch mobs ready to tar-n-feather charlatans and mountebanks). Time and laboratory space could be limitations to the level of spell being incorporated in a potion, too.
I do like the shelf life aspect...an easy dice roll based on "time since brew" to see if the thing is still effective. Makes found potions a little dicier, though.
Ah, "profitable" was supposed to be "producable". (stupid smart-phone) Lol. And I also meant the pros and cons between a potion and a scroll of the same spell type. The shelf life of a scroll, as long as its in a sealed case may last longer than a similar potion, but a potion isn't as susceptible to elements like fire.
ReplyDeleteI would definitely require the potion maker to be able to cast a comparable spell before they could make a potion. By itself that would restrict the production of the listed potions to 3rd level and above.
ReplyDeleteThe scroll table in the book includes the entry: “Any potion spell except delusion or poison”.
The fact that a “potion spell” can be represented in a written form suggests to me that “Giant Strength”, “Diminution” etc could be treated as unlisted high level spells. 4th level? It’s a shame they don’t appear as such in OD&D, 1e AD&D or Cook Expert, but whatever.
Healing potions are an obvious problem, given that the corresponding spell is a Clerical one. I’m really not sure which way to go here.
Then there’s that pesky scroll entry “Any ring spell except wishes or regeneration”. More spells to add to the list, I suppose. I’m not going anywhere near the question of creating magic rings for the time being.
Zenopus has solved by problem for me over on the Dragonsfoot boards, I think. There's a relevant passage on page 7 of OD&D Vol 1 which I missed when I glanced through it.
ReplyDeleteThe passage includes the "Wizards and above" restriction that Holmes dropped for scrolls, so I don't see any particular need to apply it to potions.
My world is pretty lethal, so giving the PCs nice things doesn't cause problems. And NPCs can kit themselves up the same way...
Yes, in Holmes you can have a "Scroll of Healing". In fact, the Chapel of Silence module from Dragon #50, written for Holmes, has just such a magic item. The text for Scrolls implies that the Potion/RingWand spell scrolls are for magic-users.
ReplyDeleteOne solution would be that a Potion of Healing (or Scroll) requires a magic-user and cleric to work together to create the item.
Here's the DF post if anyone is interested:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=72032&p=1686790#p1686790
I wouldn't put Healing on the standard spell list (unless ditching Clerics completely), but I wouldn't have any problem with a magic-user researching a Healing spell.
ReplyDeleteI usually rule that potions of healing are available for a sizable donation at the local church or temple, and yes, every temple makes their own healing potions, but the potions may be Aligned the same as the temple that made it!
ReplyDeleteI should have mentioned that my witches have their own spell list, which includes healing.
ReplyDeleteSounds like a job for the ever popular alchemist : ) Dragon Magazine #2 had one by Jon Picken (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2733&highlight=retro). There's also on in Dragon #45 (January 1981; authored by Roger Moore) which you could easily adapt for Holmes, as did Bard Games' The Compleat Alchemist (review here http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2011/06/retrospective-compleat-alchemist.html).
ReplyDelete